Curse

ensoriki · Jun 11, 2007, 09:08 PM // 21:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by makosi

Since this game is Build Wars, it is your Build that determines victory whether caster or otherwise.

If I am an Ineptitude Mesmer with Ineptitude, Clumsiness, Signet of Clumsiness and so on, I am going to defeat the non-caster. If I am a Migraine Mesmer then the non-caster will beat me down (because I can't use Distortion these days). If a caster is aware of what he/she is about to face, they can customize a build that will take down the enemy very efficiently with the right skills. However, for those without crystal balls, casters are very vulnerable to both (a) other casters and (b) non-casters. Non-casters have the inherent bonus of additional armour.

That's part of the balance.

My anti-melee necro, anti-caster mesmer and snare eles have very conditonal skills that require a condition to be present for them to be effective. Warriors/Rangers/Paragons/Assassins/Dervishes/Rangers deal indiscriminate damage regardless of their specific purposes.

True, however...hee you put rangers twice.
Anyways Sins strength comes from a conditional situation... chain doesnt get screwed up which isn't too difficult. Anti-melee necro and mesmers don't have it too bad, and snare eles are somewhat more difficult.

Does that change the advantages of easier class shutdown?

Shendaar · Jun 11, 2007, 09:08 PM // 21:08

Until you get to play decent pvp with decent players, you won't understand anyway. People don't run Aegis chains, wards and a blindbot in GvG so they can stop casters or the almost non-existent Assassin. They run all that to survive the 2 warriors on the other team.

ensoriki · Jun 11, 2007, 09:12 PM // 21:12

Fine, whatever.

Just because something isn't done doesn't stop the fact that it exists.

However see things the way you wish, I see more advantagous on the spellcasters side then melee (advantages not unbalances). So I asked if any1 else saw that.

However the entire thing would not exists if Daze became more accesible for any melee class (recharge,energy, elitism ..whatever). Rangers have easy access to daze others don't without substantial energy loss, or a condition.

Anyways thanks for the opinions.

Shendaar · Jun 11, 2007, 09:22 PM // 21:22

You see more advantage because you compare everything "1 on 1", which is pointless in GW.

Jeremy Untouchable · Jun 11, 2007, 09:24 PM // 21:24

Skuld knows his stuff, Warrior> any on overtime damage production. Sure eles and assassins hand out big damage in bursts. Warriors will just plain kill you. If you recall the most hated warrior build ever was IWAY, not because it didnt work, but because warriors with 16 in axe or sword or hammer flat out damage anything in the game. <-----Note the period

Age · Jun 11, 2007, 09:41 PM // 21:41

There are those who think that Elementalist is the highest damge dealing class well that is not true even an air Ele.I can even shut down an Ele with my Monk.It really doesn't matter as Warriors are damage dealer look at what a hammer warrior can do.The only thing a spell castor is great better than some melee classes is farming pure a simple.

Dutch Masterr · Jun 11, 2007, 09:58 PM // 21:58

ANY profession can kill ANY other profession, it just depends on your builds.

Antheus · Jun 11, 2007, 10:07 PM // 22:07

There's 10 primary classes. Depending on the arena, all of them shine, it just depends on circumstances.

Next, obtain UAX, and have one available PvP slot.

Then play all arenas with all viable characters, using viable builds. The only rules are rules imposed by particular arena.

Play 100+ matches with each build with each primary.

Then we can discuss which class/skill/team/gimmick/whatever is overpowered.

Knowing the strengths and weaknesses of every class and every build means winning.

But playing an assassin in random arena is not representative of either class balance, skill balance or anything. All conditions and hexes are a non-issue in organized teams, since they are removed by those responsible for it.

And if you do go 1 on 1, then accept there are situations you cannot counter.

margretli · Jun 11, 2007, 10:51 PM // 22:51

Arguing which is the best profession in GW is like arguing what is the best paper, scissors, or rocks, in a game of Rock, Paper, Scissor...

Stormlord Alex · Jun 11, 2007, 10:57 PM // 22:57

Margretli, you silly person...
The obvious answer is a shotgun.

FalconDance · Jun 11, 2007, 11:00 PM // 23:00

I'm still a bit confused as to the purpose of this thread. It seems a vast, convoluted attempt to elevate the assasin to the upper tier, somehow weaving a tangled web of argument that the 'sin is better than warriors and than casters (for various reasons).

As several have tried to point out, each profession has its strengths and its weaknesses. It's up to the person behind the keyboard to make the character either successful or fail, regardless of those advantages/disadvantages. Neither melee nor caster types are superior to each other EXCEPT under certain circumstances, in certain situations and then ONLY if the person playing the character knows what they're doing and can adjust accordingly.

Quote:

Do you mean, you can be a warrior and beat a caster and vise versa? What kind of caster was this, Because Most casters who don't take some kind of defense don't seem to great to me. All around defense or defense against 1 person (blinding is 1 person Ward of Defense is all around) Would get to a warrior would it not?

I don't believe I know any casters who are serious about their profession (as in know what they're doing, have figured out how to play the profession and have an effective set of skills) who don't have some sort of defense. Eles, since you keep harping on them, have multiple spells (different elements) that only do damage to adjacent foe. In other words, if aggro breaks through our front line and rushes me so fast I can't kite, I stand my ground and set off something like Inferno or Aftershock (or any one of several others). Adjacent foe - to me - take quite a bit of damage, thus discouraging them from standing too close. And if a warrior isn't close enough, they can't hit me. Another example would be the monk's Wrath. Sounds pretty defensive to me.

Yes, I can be a warrior and beat a caster and vice versa. Notice, I repeat what you said -- singular terms. A warrior against a cadre of casters is mincemeat; a caster against a cadre of warriors/melee is mincemeat. The only other time a warrior or melee class would fall to a caster (and vice versa) would be if you're unprepared and go against someone vastly superior toyou in skills (thinking of some of mid-level tanks I've seen whine when a level 24 foe hits them twice and that's all it takes).

If you don't like playing a warrior, don't.

If you think a 'sin is the bestest there is, please be the best 'sin there is and quit trying to win the rest of us over.

If you think casters are seriously over-powered and should actually be demi-gods in their own rights, well, there are a few who might agree.

If you haven't been able to figure out a profession, be it caster or melee, enough to be successful in PvE and/or PvP, then please either spend more time taking and processing advice from those of us who have done so OR let it rest and go play your 'sin.

No embers, just a mild form of disgust that so much time has been taken trying to discuss something about which you will not make an intelligent conversation.

~Falcon

Diddy bow · Jun 11, 2007, 11:03 PM // 23:03

Well i thought this myself once, but i thought if you shutdown a casters offence his defence dies too. This isnt the case for a warrior paragon or ranger. And an assin has a huge attack anyway

.

Guardian of the Light · Jun 12, 2007, 02:51 AM // 02:51

Come on this arguement pretty much boils down to

I am rock, NERF PAPER, scissors is fine.

In terms of build there is a buidl that beats the other so there isn't anything really unbalanced.

xDusT II · Jun 12, 2007, 03:41 AM // 03:41

90% of the arguments in this thread make no sense or people are arguing on different levels.
Before we can accurately debate the damage from all clasess, we need to know certain circumstances such as are we referring to PvE or PvP. Both PvE and PvP play very differently and different classes favour each type of play better than others.
In PvP melee is your standard offence. The reason is because whereas a casters damage comes from spells, a warriors damage comes from attacking. Casters must expend energy to do damage (except for wanding) whereas a warrior can just sit there c-spacing someone and keeping a decent amount of pressure on the monks aswell as building adrenaline for potential spikes.
The second argument that has come up alot is the condition deep wound. Without a doubt, melee classes have the easiest ways of applying deep wound, be it eviscerate, wearying strike or twisting fangs. This is not to say a caster class cannot apply deep wound, however they are limited in their choices and often must use a secondary proffesion to access deep wound,further restricting what they can do. The other snag is that the secondary deep wound skills which I've heard mentioned such as Augury of Death are conditional compared to the melee classes unconditional deep wound.
Then there is the argument over anti-melee hexes and conditions that hamper a warriors DPS, the thing is, you have to think WHY these hexes or conditions are being used? It's is in effect to stop melee which is essential in pvp. If casters were the preferred damage choice then we would see anti-caster hexes and conditions being used. The whole point of the counters is to counter the meta or the prevent what you are most likely to go up against. Warriors have been for long time, the offensive weapon of choice. thus why hexes like reckless haste and b.surge ele's are so common. These counters are designed to stop these melee classes unleashing havok to their team. If it weren't for the warriors and melee classes, chances are we wouldn't see any b.surge eles or curses necros and there would be threads such as "Do warriors get it too good?".

In PvE nuking wins. The reason is because AoE damage is multiplied by the amount of enemies you hit, and in PvE there are alot of targets to hit. Enemy AI are stupid, they will clump up or stand in fatal AoE attacks whereas if you tried the same tactic in PvP, say use a Meteor shower in pvp, you would most likely be laughed at on the enemies vent as they easily sidestep the AoE attack, reducing the casters potential damage to zero, and wasting a 60r 25e spell. In pve, with clumped and numerous groups of enemies, spells like Searing flames do insane amounts of damage, well higher than a warrior could achieve.

So seriously,t his argument is largely flawed, A class's use it's largely dependant on 2 things,
1)What does the job easiest
and
2)What is likely to be the most effective against what I am likely to go up against.

Roshi_ikkyu · Jun 12, 2007, 03:44 AM // 03:44

I can't believe this thread is still going!

If you say that warriors can take a caster in 1 on 1, ensoriki will mention its about teams.

If you point out that a monk is only as good as the tanks in the team, ensoriki will say it about 1 on 1.

It also a matter of Appple Vs Oranges, it highly selected on personal choice.

ensoriki will not agree to any logical argument that differes from his view.

So far i've seen circular reasoning, bifurcation (only 2 options, caster are over powered; or warriors are underpowered), conditional reasoning, generalisation and can't forget the red herring replies.

prism2525 · Jun 12, 2007, 06:05 AM // 06:05

It's all about secondaries. Warriors can shake off hexes and conditions with a spell from the second profession.

undeadgun · Jun 12, 2007, 06:09 AM // 06:09

i think it is quite balanced.
for excample: in HM, some ele mobs with fire ball and meteor can bring a 2 seconds death to a party(mostly henchie and heros) without a melee char , i ve tried it, trust me on that, or try urself in HM Kodonur Crossroads mission.
so in PvE, war/dervish are mostly meant to be tanking or taking the most dmg for the team, if u are not smart enough, dont play sin in PvE(all based on missions and such, not for solo farming)
in PvP however, 1 or 2 melees in a balanced team is required( that's why they called "balanced" i guess:S) they meant to be the pressure of the oppsite team's middle line backline, and once they build up AD, they call out a spike with allyed casters togather to finish off an enemy.
so either spell caster or melee based char in both terms of PvE or PvP are pretty balanced, they help each other for the single purpose: let the target down faster easier and at the same time, reduce the most dmg that ally would be taken. long story short:it is a team work based game.

Taki · Jun 12, 2007, 07:21 AM // 07:21

This needed to be posted at GWO in order to fulfill it's true potential.

Div · Jun 12, 2007, 08:00 AM // 08:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taki

This needed to be posted at GWO in order to fulfill it's true potential.

Knowing how knowledgeable the OP is about guild wars, he probably already posted it there and got flamed for his stupidity, which is why he is seeking consolation here.

Cebe · Jun 12, 2007, 08:07 AM // 08:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chicken Ftw

One last thing. Not sure if all of this topic still holds true with the addition of NF, but it's a good read regardless for any war v ele comparisons: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...d.php?t=113319 Yes it's been linked to before, but it's worth a second time imo.

Yay..."cba to argue - I'll just link to Why Nuking Sucks"...a thread which is nearly a year and a half old, before the major elementalist buffs. I'm not saying you're wrong to say warriors deal more damage but it hacks me off that this thread gets quoted so often when it is SO old.

Physical damage dealers seem to me to be king of PvP...because it seems that they need to do half-decent damage by auto-attacking as well as with attack skills and, let's face it, wanding just doesn't cut it. In PvE however I'm yet to find a warrior who can deal the same sort of damage as some of my casters. Foes bunch up giving me a prime AoE target which means a caster can deal a LOT more damage over a short space of time to multiple foes. Sure, sometimes foes will run out of AoE, moreso in Hard Mode, but this is the reason why casters (elementalists in particular) have snares and knockdown which, if used correctly, can keep foes in an AoE for a lot longer. In PvP this doesn't work anywhere near as well as foes move out of AoEs very quickly...thus snares + a happy-slashing warrior with high 1v1 damage seems to win out.